From: Shi Huang
To: JTB (ELS)
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
To: Shi Huang
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 12:13 AM
Subject: RE: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
San Diego, CA 92101 USA Phone: 619-699-6324 Email: jtb@elsevier.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 1:04 AM
To: JTB (ELS)
Subject: Re: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
To: Shi Huang
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 7:48 AM
Subject: RE: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
Janet
San Diego, CA 92101 USA Phone: 619-699-6324 Email: jtb@elsevier.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:31 PM
To: JTB (ELS)
Subject: Re: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
To: Shi Huang
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
San Diego, CA 92101 USA Phone: 619-699-6324 Email: jtb@elsevier.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:28 PM
To: JTB (ELS)
Subject: Re: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
To: Shi Huang
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
San Diego, CA 92101 USA Phone: 619-699-6324 Email: jtb@elsevier.com
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:38 PM
To: JTB (ELS)
Subject: Re: JTB-D-11-00402: Final Decision
Our method is correct while others incorrect for the simple reason that ours is the only method that takes into account of MGD and is based on a correct interpretation of the genetic equidistance result.
In your analyses where you attempt to show that humans are sister to a clade consisting of chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas, you have used only slowly evolving genes as defined by you. Your classificaiton into slow and fast evolving genes is arbitrary (98% similarity between 'simple' species, 85% similarity), etc. Why is this? Why don't you use a standard 80% or 50%?
The fact that I can show a group of genes being different from the rest such as those above 98% identity from those below is a major contradiction to the existing paradigm. There is nothing unreasonable in my definition. Percent identity is just one of the factor to consider in this definition. Another is that the slow and fast group as defined by a seemingly arbitrary number such as 80% should show clear difference in a equidistance testing analysis. If they dont show a difference, we would know that we have not defined the cutoff number correctly and we will just seek a new number to test until we found one that meets our criterion. We have now another way to distinguish fast and slow genes. Fast genes should show a high number of overlap positions or saturated mutation sites whereas slow ones should not. This can be easily counted.
You choose genes that are more similar among 'simpler' species compared to humans. For instance, in the human-orangutan-chimpanzee comparison, you choose the genes that are 98% or more similar between orangutan and a 'similarly complex' species (chimpanzee), and designate these as 'slow evolving genes'. Based on similarity between such genes, you come to the conclusion that orangutans and chimpanzee are more closely related to each other than either of them is to humans This is circular reasoning. You first choose genes on the criterion that they are very similar between two taxa, and eventually conclude that the two taxa are similar to each other based on similarity. That said, I am not trying to assert that humans are chimpanzees are more closely related. Your hypothesis may well be true, but you need proper evidence to support it. Your current reasoning is not tenable.
My way to chose such genes is logically sound as explained in the ms. This way may have potential pitfalls as you have correctly noticed. But such pitfall is not real problem for the soundness of the method because we do have negative controls. One control is that fast evolving genes selected by the same notion of similarity between orangutan and gorilla do not show orang and gorilla to be closer to each other than orang and human. If your circular argument is truely the reason for our observation on the slow genes, you would have a hard time to explain the opposite observation with the fast evolving genes. A second control is that the slow genes selected based on orang and gorilla similarity shows gorilla and chimpanzee to be equidistant to orangutan, which is not expected if your circular argument is true (you would expect to see gorilla closer to orang). Third, the same method did not fail to correctly identify other well supported clades such as monkey ape clade to the exclusion of prosimeans. Thus, there is a point to be learned here for evolutionary biologists in general. One should always keep an eye on the coherence of the whole picture. This means no contradictions. This also means when all other negative controls work as expected, then we should accept the positive result regardless whether we like it or not or whether it fits with our old notions. Because if we dont, we allow ourselves contradictions. When all other patterns follow our method, why should human and chimpanzee be an exception to that pattern? If you can easily accept that exception without a reason, you grant to much incoherency into nature, which has of course become a habit given the existing paradigm is alive only because people has a habit of overlooking contradictions. It is a well known motto among evolutionary biologists that all rules/patterns/laws in biology have exceptions. I dont buy that and I challenge every one to contradict the MGD. A law with contradictions simply means you have not found the complete law. Why is such plain truth which deems us stupid being overlooked while the self-deceiving and self-promoting notion of all rules have exceptions being favored among us? Of course, no one should be surprised given that evolutionary biologists are only human.
Ignoring the circularity, the 'phylogenetic analysis' of primates presented here is not a true phylogenetic reconstruction, but based on distance data i.e. a phenetic method.
As explained just above, there is no circularity here, not if one looked all of the results presented. Whether a distance method is phenetic or whatwever is irrelevant to a truthful construction of phylogeny. The inherent soundness of the logic and reason behind the method should be the deciding factor. It is non sensible to use genetic distance or similarity that is really a reflection of MGD to infer phylogeny, which is what is being done by all existing methods. It is non-sensible to even attempt to construct phylogeny when one has no real understanding of the reason for the genetic equidistance phenomenon.
'Although proteins have more sequences under natural selection than non-coding DNA, they stillhave neutral sequences so long they show difference between species and the method here only makes use of the neutral sequences' The relationship between showing difference between species and having neutral sequences is not clear. If two species are similar in sequences at a particular chromosomal, does it mean that selection acts on this region? On the other side of the coin, why can't differential selection in species lead to changes in non-neutral regions of the chromosome?
I am only applying the neutral theory here since this theory treats most of such differences as neutral. More correctly, many such differences are due to natural selection. But even if due to natural selection, the accumulation of such differences may still follow a clock like pattern, as is demonstrated by a recent Richard Lenski Nature paper on bacteria evolution in the lab. One sound way to make sense of the similar behavior for neutral and non neutral mutations is to notice that they share the common property of random fixation. Natural selection is in contrast to artificial selection, one is random and the other intentional and non random. Selection the process per se is not random but the outcome is random because the environmental change is random for natural selection. The outcome of artificial selection is non random because the environmental change is non random. Thus fixation of mutations by artificial selection is not random and should not follow a clock like pattern, but fixation of mutations by natural selection is random, in the same sense as random drift, and thus should follow the behavior of neutral mutations.
'A molecular clock calibrated from one fossil split time should produce divergence times consistent with other fossil records and other independently calibrated molecular clocks.' This is not entirely true. Fossils only provide minimum estimates of times of divergence, they can never provide absolute times. You also need to take this into account in your discussion about divergence times within the hominoid clade.
In an ideal situation, this should be true. Granted that some fossil record may not be complete, but here we are talking about those well established beyond any reasonable doubt. The mammal radiation or the Cambrian explosion are such records.
Overall, I don't think the author provides convincing evidence or reasoning to support his/her argument that 'complexity of species' (however defined) affects the rate of evolution of sequences. The 'phylogenetic analysis of primates has several problems, some of which I have discussed in this review.
